Kate Bowler:I dont think Ill like it, but I will think of you when I do it. They reel and wander and fixate and roll back and reconsider, because its like this, having a mind. Kate Bowler:Well, your book has such a wonderful collection of phrases around essays, stuff like Tell me more, and you write about incredible things people can say when theyre figuring out the road ahead. I should not be mad about this. We should hold hands for a moment, as a way of marking the glory of a family dinner, and they do that. Tomorrow, March 28, 2023 would have been his 40th birthday. Many of you listen to Kelly Corrigan who WFS brought to Charlotte in October 2021. I even use it at the end of lectures like, Hey, this is the end of the 19th century. Team Everything Happens. As Teri said, He didnt have a drug problem, he had a life problem. Thats where its at. And Ive talked to a couple of my girlfriends whove gotten divorced, and they say the exact same thing happens to them. Im like, Yeah, right. Our family motto is, We dont sell family. When our dog was a puppy and being housebroken, he kept sneaking around piddling in the corners of rooms. Despair defies description. Kate Bowler:Words matter. Dont misread this, my mother was a loving woman, but she passed on this legacy, this painful legacy shed been burdened with, that women should take up as little space as possible, risk as little as possible, and hide our lights lest we make fools of ourselves. So, I grew up with this sentence with my fathers voice in my head saying, Allah Kareem, God is generous., Cheryl:Our family motto is, Dont eat a hamster. Yeah. Onwards! My mom called me maybe three months after my dad died. I found that instructive. Kelly Corrigan:Dont get crumbs on the baby. Theres a title. The space between doubt and belief is often unpopular, but the tension can be held. Kate Bowler:So, todays conversation is about developing language to move us forward when life is well, chronic. This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged. (As consciously lesbian from about four-years old, believe it or not, I preferred handsome to pretty.) Minds dont rest. I have watched every episode on PBS and cannot get enough of the show Mrs Corrigan!!! Onwards, but you use it so beautifully when youre talking about Lizs family and how they are now. The Best Show is the best live podcast you're ever gonna hear! Kelly Corrigan:And he said, Thats a way to be a parent, which is to say to be there, to be available, to be within view, but not necessarily inserting yourself, because even though as your kids get older and older, it feels like theyre looking for you less and less, it is sort of a comfort to glance over, and see you there, and feel you there, and they would most certainly notice if you werent. You start with, Its like this.. Each episode ends with Kellys shortlist of takeaways, appropriate for refrigerator doors, bulletin boards and notes to your children. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us Hebrews 12:1 Hosted by four-time New York Times bestselling author Kelly Corrigan, the show features insightful conversations with notable guests, reflecting on their lives and the impact they can have on their worlds. Kate Bowler:Todays episode is brought to you by our partners, North Carolina Public Radio WUNC, the Lilly Endowment, The Issachar Fund, The John Templeton Foundation, Faith and Leadership: An Online Learning Resource, and Duke Divinity School, and of course, Beverly Abel, Jessica Richie, and Be the Change Revolutions. Kate Bowler:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kate Bowler:Well I think part of it, and this gets to another phrase that you write about which is I dont know, but you and I, it sounds like, have given up on certainties as a way to cope with that, both having been through cancer, and also I think both realizing that people really dont like it when you say, I dont know.. Okay, but Im just telling you those kids are waking up every day without her, and theyre going to keep being without her forever. I was wrong, and that is very soothing, but then that took me back to this moment where I had gone to work for United Way after college, because I was going to save the world, and I was this total do-gooder. I didnt engage with her. They swell, and constrict, and break, and forgive, and behold, because its like this, having a heart. For our weekly dose of wonder, NPR learns about glorious sounds chicken make at a very important moment in their . Theres a whole world out there happening, and you can step into all kinds of things, and you dont need to know why youre leaving the house. At a time when so much feels unex RELATED LINKS Try this episode's happiness practice: 36 Questions for Increasing Closeness Read Kelly Corrigan's new book, Tell Me More Transcript In other words, it could happen to you tomorrow.. Theres meatless Mondays, and theres a kombucha bar, and theres nap pods. Go get mixed up in something. Team Everything Happens. I had to make it into a vest to remove it from my body with the tag still on it, you know? This forgetting, this slide into smallness, this irritability in shame, this disorienting grief Its like this. Shed do anything. I mean, people are getting colon cancer at your age all the time. My son was, of course, distraught and felt the dog was a part of the family and worth the trouble. Kilpy Each episode in Season 5 of "Tell Me More" will leave you hopeful and with a few more tools in your kit to craft the life you want. We can remove the first video in the list to add this one. You might actually give somebody a chance to discover whats really bothering them, and in that discovery they might find their own solution, but the fact is that if you can bite your stupid tongue, and get over yourself, and just keep eliciting their whole story, then the next thing you know, their mood is changing, and theyre feeling more solution-oriented, and then they get the buzz of solving the problem. Like the other day when I was being wheeled into a procedure, the nurse looked at my chart, and then casually said, Colon cancer. Kelly Corrigan:So, she had to call someone and ask them to come over and zip her dress so she could go to the wedding. In this season of "Tell Me More," listen to one-on-one conversations with musical icons like Jewel and Lang Lang, community leaders like Del Seymour, entertainment heavyweights like Constance Wu and Michael Lewis, scientists like Maya Shankar, and more. You also realized there was incredible parenting magic in the phrase, Tell me more. So, what is this witchcraft you speak of? Im not sure where the bar is set at in normalcy though. Follow Kate on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. I went into this tiny bathroom in Baltimore in our office building, and just cried my eyes out, and it wasnt even because she died. Theres a whole world out there happening, and you can step into all kinds of things, and you dont need to know why youre leaving the house. 00:35:25 - Annie Jean Baptiste in the Head of Product Inclusion at Google where she spends her time thinking about the products we use very day and how who's a Its so that they can identify some critical difference between you and them that makes them feel like they can exhale again. So, todays conversation is about developing language to move us forward when life is well, chronic. Labels like chronic illness, or caregiver, or widow, or mom of a kid with special needs. Kelly Corrigan:And thats the truth. But first, we need you to sign in to PBS using one of the services below. Kelly Corrigan:The magic of Tell me more is you start telling me what youre upset about, and I fall for the first thing you say, and I start solving for that. Its all this cumulative effect of a thousand minuscule moments. So, Dont eat a hamster is our version of Dont jump to conclusions.. Kate Bowler:Yeah. Surely, my friend, my lost and lovely friend, called for new words. Go get mixed up in something. I mean, I dont know why you went with, Everything Happens for a Reason, because Dont get crumbs on the baby, that could be the follow up. Kelly Corrigan:Well you know, its so funny. Kelly Corrigan:Youre feeling like ABC, not DEF. So thats the beauty of it. So much of what you both say resonates for me. Kelly and Kate Bowler dive into that phrase so often offered up to explain bad stuff: "everything happens for a reason." Kate is a divinity professor at Duke University and the bestselling author of three books. After the potency of the crime metaphor wore off, I turned to the vocabulary of religion. It just ends the tension because what youre saying is, I see it how you see it, and I agree with you. Kelly Corrigan:I didnt die. I think part of why your book is so moving is the way that these sayings crystallize these really big truths about who we are, and also how we should love each other. Kelly Corrigan:And then she died, and my dad called, and my dad had nothing but positive things to say to me my entire life, and he said, You should have gone to see your grandmother more. Then I wanted to get right with him, and urgently. Your email address will not be published. Kate Bowler:Yeah. Thanks so much for your refreshing, poignant, thought-provoking podcast. Kelly Corrigan:They hate it. Kelly Corrigan:I know, me too. They hate it. Kelly Corrigan:And it wasnt my turn for his attention. Kelly Corrigan:Well you know, its so funny. Kelly Corrigan:Well you know, sometimes the trivial is tragic. Kelly Corrigan:You know, that I had lost his favor for a moment, and I was just so ashamed. I mean, Im totally coming to see you. Kate Bowler:Well, I accept. Kilpy Kate Bowler:I do think people offer certainties when they think that youre proof of something that scares them, and they cant just live in the uncertainty of not knowing for a minute. I really appreciate it. You could do worse than to live by that one. Kelly Corrigan:Have you ever heard that potted plant theory? Kelly Corrigan:Now maybe Im going to go to Durham, and now maybe Im going to get my PhD in Divinity. Kelly Corrigan:I sat at my dining room table, which is place I never write, and I thought, Oh my God, of course I know exactly what this is. Kate Bowler:Getting back to life has been really tricky. CW: death of parent, death of friend to cancer. (To be fair, Ive loved all that I have listened to). But the fact is if I said, Tell me more, go on, what else, youd say the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing, and it would be like the thing behind the thing, behind the thing is where really the pain is, and if I had waited way longer, I wouldve been able to say, Oh, I understand.. What do you do when life doesnt fit into neat categories? Kate Bowler:You are someone who has gotten mixed up in all kinds of things, and I am so glad to know you. It doesnt end, and also you cant live there. Kelly Corrigan:And so I didnt do it. Im so compassionate to that thing that happens every time you tell someone that you had cancer, which is the other person trying to figure out why its not going to happen to them as fast as possible. They thrill, and confound, and circle, and overflow, and disappear, because its like this, having a life.. Del Seymour and Kelly Corrigan in Lafayette, CA. Kelly Corrigan:So, she had to call someone and ask them to come over and zip her dress so she could go to the wedding. Im so grateful to hear the ways youre connecting with Kate and Kelly. This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged. Im so sorry youre not going to like any of my answers. I was wrong not to try to ease her days in some way.. Kelly Corrigan:You cant be in the world, and get through your to-do list, and also sit in endless, rich gratitude. Kelly Corrigan:Well you know, sometimes the trivial is tragic. I was healthy, and then I was sick, and now Im feeling pretty good, and even though the language around immunotherapy isnt perfect, I can happily say that I am in remission. Like the other day when I was being wheeled into a procedure, the nurse looked at my chart, and then casually said, Colon cancer. Okay, but Im just telling you those kids are waking up every day without her, and theyre going to keep being without her forever. Kelly Corrigan:And Im getting to walk with them way longer on their road, and I felt this sense that I could never possibly deserve that, that Im not that great a person, or a mom. Its the only way to keep the last bit of sanity. So Kelly, welcome. Im sorry I didnt go see your mom. Thats not the same as saying I was wrong not to try to know her. Constance Wu and Kelly Corrigan in Lafayette, CA. She has been called the voice of her generation and the poet laureate of the ordinary, and she is the most perfect person to talk to to kick us off because her lovely new book is called Tell Me More, and Tell me more is one of those phrases she uses, phrases that she writes about that help guide her through relationships, and parenting, and grief. Lang Lang and Gina Alice play the piano in Lafayette, CA. Today, Im speaking with New York Times bestselling author, Kelly Corrigan. Together, Kate and Kelly explore the phrases we cling to in order to find deeper connection and meaning during difficult times. For awhile, Id say shed been robbed, or ripped off. I mean, I remember thinking, when I wasnt sure, when I was in an especially tough moment of illness, every time I would look at Zachs nails I would think, Is this what wouldve happened if I hadnt been here to do this? I was wrong not to try to ease her days in some way.. Shed do dishes all day and into the night to just get to listen to her children, just to get to watch them through a one-way glass, you know? This is the way this has to be, and its right there. And the potted plant theory, I cant credit it to someone, Im sorry, I dont know who put it out there, but the idea is that if you were to have a plant in your kitchen, you might not be aware of it at all, and then if someone were to remove it, youd say What happened to that plant?. Michael highlights the importance of . I mean, that means shes with them. I dont know. Thanks for sharing. I think we make life a little more interesting! What do you do when life doesnt fit into neat categories? I think we should be talking about five percent of the time. Its what I said to my grad school colleague when she asked me if I planned to go into academia after we graduated. Its not in my family. I always asked her this when I wondered if I was handsome in any way. On Sundays, Kelly records a special podcast called, "Thanks for Being Here" where she reads the toasts and tributes that listeners have submitted about those they love. And then right on the heels of that, I think, What would Liz do for this?. She totally doesnt get it. Were jumping in way too soon and talking way too much. But first, we need you to sign in to PBS using one of the services below. Hosted by Tom Scharpling and featuring celebrity guests, music, callers, and plenty of surprises, The Best Show streams live every Tuesday night on Twitch at 6pm PT and is available on your podcast apps the next day. Its remarkable to hear a bit of your story and Im really grateful that youve shared it with us. It was because I had been selfish, and my dad caught me. I thoroughly enjoyed your podcast and listening to you both. You are in good company. Her teams look to her for direction, but she wanted to see what would happen if she paused more to ask them questions, and found it totally changed her approach to both her work and family life. Shes not going to hold their babies.. Kelly Corrigan:The magic of Tell me more is you start telling me what youre upset about, and I fall for the first thing you say, and I start solving for that. Kelly Corrigan:So, my husband worked at a startup in San Francisco, which is called Medium, and its a writing platform, and as a writer, I was welcome to come, and use their office space, and its everything you think a San Francisco startup is. Kelly Corrigan:My instinct is to fix, cause I feel Im almost sure I can. Lives dont last. Im so glad youve been plugging in and hope to keep hearing your feedback! Kelly Corrigan:You dont always need such a plan, or an agenda, or whatever. Kate Bowler:Yeah, the indignity. Neal Brennan and Kelly Corrigan have a conversation in NYC. Youre giving these beautiful phrases, and each of them feels like a kind of roadmap, and you start with one that really resonated deeply with me. Its cancer inflammatory breast cancer, with a twenty percent chance of living to five years. I mean, that was my big experience of your book. I mean, its a little bit like, Just keep saying yes. You know, When in doubt, say Sure, Ill do that, just to see what happens next, just to see who you might meet. Kate Bowler:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jennifer Garner tells Kelly Corrigan how she inspires others to find their true passions. Kate Bowler:Words matter. Im hearing all the music, Im totally tuned in to the right channel, and then just like that, I slip into those mundane irritants., Kelly Corrigan:And then I catch myself, and then I feel this sense of shame, and he said, Its like this. Kelly Corrigan:Now maybe Im going to go to Durham, and now maybe Im going to get my PhD in Divinity. You are everywhere they are., Kelly Corrigan:I really believe that, even though Im skeptical, and Im mad at people who say, Her spirits still here, and stuff. For what Ive just seen in the last six months, I should be different. I even use it at the end of lectures like, Hey, this is the end of the 19th century. I think earn is such a good word, because youre talking about such a complicated math. Kelly Corrigan:Thats not a headline anybody wants to read. You've just tried to add this show to My List. Kelly Corrigan:Well, chop-chop kid. Kelly Corrigan:And I should not lose my mind over a shirt I bought on final sale section that didnt fit even though I tried to pull it over myself, and then it got stuck on me, and I had to cut it off with scissors. I mean, Im totally coming to see you. Im sorry to ask about the hard part, but would you mind telling me what happened? Kelly Corrigan Wonders Weekly series started Oct. 4, 2020. I was wrong. Kate Bowler:My life doesnt exactly fit into neat categories anymore. Im grateful for your wisdom in the messy, the uncertain and the in-between. Kelly Corrigan:Well, chop-chop kid. This is me writing a letter to Liz, and I wrote the whole thing, and I cried my eyes out the whole time I was writing it, and wiping my nose, and blowing my nose, and sitting back down, and Edwards like, You all right? And Im like, Im all right. Stay healthy. Im so compassionate to that thing that happens every time you tell someone that you had cancer, which is the other person trying to figure out why its not going to happen to them as fast as possible. Kelly Corrigan:Like, almost every time Im sure that if you just let me take over, I can make this problem go away. One is called Yesterday and the other is called Tomorrow. Thats the word. Kate Bowler:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kate Bowler:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I go, Oh, thank you for that bit of suggestion.. Kate Bowler:I do think people offer certainties when they think that youre proof of something that scares them, and they cant just live in the uncertainty of not knowing for a minute. Were just a series of days and interactions. Kelly Corrigan:I sat at my dining room table, which is place I never write, and I thought, Oh my God, of course I know exactly what this is. What a unique family motto! I didnt do it. We have a lot to learn from you. I mean, I dont know why you went with, Everything Happens for a Reason, because Dont get crumbs on the baby, that could be the follow up. Tell Me More with Kelly Corrigan is a series that inspires, educates and entertains. Michael Lewis sends his thanks to Dr. Arthur White, a former history teacher at Isidore Newman School in New Orleans, Louisiana, for kicking him in class whenever hed fall asleep. Just do your best. Kelly Corrigan:Its like a game changer. Its like this now seems like a helpful way to process changethanks for offering that up . She had ovarian cancer, so she had fought it for seven years, and it was the kind of thing where I felt like I urgently wanted to deserve my life. You know, I honestly think I only say Im sorry, and not, I was wrong. I think I might try it. I dont know. Kelly Corrigan is the best-selling author of "Tell Me More: Stories about the 12 Hardest Things I'm Learning to Say," and a proud graduate of the University of Richmond. I was in a big, big rush to get in front of him, and say my apology, and be returned to a state of grace, but the fact is that his mom died. If you haven't heard of Father Greg Boyle, let us introduce you: a Jesuit priest who has a touch of Santa Claus in his affect, Greg Boyle has collaborated with thousands of former gang members to build thriving businesses and communities of radical acceptance in East LA. He was saddled with depression and anxiety, which led to his trying to make himself feel better and reduce the noise in his head. This beautiful eulogy helps to paint the full picture of Ryland: a unique combination of funny, stubborn, difficult and smart. Team Everything Happens, Kate, I love that youre human- that you cry as easily as I do and that you say youre not normal as often as I do (me about myself of course!). Maybe Wills curious phrase, Its like this, applies here too. Ask the dancers, and the athletes, the painters, and musicians. Its not in my family. Being a runner, this has always been meaningful for me. We were living in Damascus, Syria, and whenever one of us asked for something Mom and Dad couldnt afford, Dad would say Allah Kareem. In Arabic, Allah means God. We should thank the chef. Maybe you want to borrow one of Kellys like, Its like this, but youre totally welcome to borrow my familys motto: Dont let the turkeys get you down. Its tried and true. Just do your best. Kelly Corrigan:Have you ever heard that potted plant theory? Kate Bowler:Thanks so much for doing this. I was wrong. Kelly Corrigan:And how do we earn it? What do we do when the labels were given arent necessarily the ones we choose for ourselves? Kelly Corrigan:Where you can feel the person kind of asking around, snooping just enough, and its not for your sake. Kate Bowler:Yeah. Thanks for the rebellion and the reminder that we as women take up space, take risks, and even make mistakes! She has a beloved podcast called Everything Happens. This episode was wonderful, wasnt it? You could do worse than to live by that one. Its completely random. For what Ive just seen in the last six months, I should be different. If you love the episode, please share and review. Kate Bowler:Yeah. Then the ocean with its waves so vast, impossible to touch bottom, then a maze, then a mountain, then seasons, a natural disaster. Kate Bowler:Well, the one that we sort of settled on most was, Dont let the turkeys get you down, cause we were all deeply unpopular children, but it did make me think about mottos, and how it sort of defines the season that we live in. It kind of reminded me though, when I was little, my family used to have these mottos, but the mottos were stuff like, Dont get crumbs on the baby, or Be nice to mom. Corrigan and her guests meander with insight and humor toward that inevitable moment when you think, "Exactly!" The Best Show with Tom Scharpling a day ago Its a sin, its hell. It just ends the tension because what youre saying is, I see it how you see it, and I agree with you. Make the magic happen. Phrases like I dont know, I was wrong, and one of my favorites, Its like this. I was in a big, big rush to get in front of him, and say my apology, and be returned to a state of grace, but the fact is that his mom died. You might actually give somebody a chance to discover whats really bothering them, and in that discovery they might find their own solution, but the fact is that if you can bite your stupid tongue, and get over yourself, and just keep eliciting their whole story, then the next thing you know, their mood is changing, and theyre feeling more solution-oriented, and then they get the buzz of solving the problem. Thats where relationship lives is in these tiny moments, and whether you are cognizant of that and tuned into that channel all the time, or not, that is the story of a relationship. I went to see her one time. I think people think that if you have a diagnosis, or somethings happened to you that you should know because youre proof of it. Now a cognitive scientist and podcaster, Maya grew up immersed in the . Kate Bowler:You and I are super chatty people, but you make an amazing pitch for silence, and I am all for it, because everyone always had these go-to things to say with me like, You can do it, or Youre so brave, and all the things that made me feel like I was on the other side of plexiglass. Youve shared some gems with us. I mean, its a little bit like, Just keep saying yes. You know, When in doubt, say Sure, Ill do that, just to see what happens next, just to see who you might meet. I think people think that if you have a diagnosis, or somethings happened to you that you should know because youre proof of it. Kelly Corrigan:I didnt die. Kate Bowler:Wow, and thats a big word. Just see who you can bump into out there. I rebelled. Maya Shankar and Kelly Corrigan in Lafayette, CA. Kate Bowler:Yeah. Maybe I dont have to be good, but I can try to be least a little better then Ive been so far., Riham:Our family motto is Allah Kareem. Kellys guest is actress and author Constance Wu - you may know her from her roles in the breakthrough tv show Fresh Off the Boat and the blockbuster film Crazy, Rich Asians. Kelly Corrigan:Thanks. That kind of belonging is transcendent, and you just feel it pop up in these little moments. Kate Bowler:You put in a strong argument, if I may say it like that, for just being close to one another. Hes just one of those people that you think, God, if I could get five minutes with him, Id just tell him my biggest problem, and hed just say something in seven words that would solve everything., Kelly Corrigan:So, eventually I went up to him, and I said, Im caught between these two worlds, this world where Im full of clarity and insight and gratitude, and Im seeing all the big colors of the world. I was healthy, and then I was sick, and now Im feeling pretty good, and even though the language around immunotherapy isnt perfect, I can happily say that I am in remission. Kelly Corrigan:So, I used to go in there and write, and they have a meditation teacher twice a day at 10:00 AM and 3:00 PM, and at first I was sort of sheepish about availing myself of every single employee benefit, but sure enough, eventually I found myself sitting in there, and this guy was kind of amazing. You know, like it wasnt me. So, I really appreciated the way that you framed the bigness and the smallness of it, because it has to be both. I didnt make her final days one bit better, and I lived there for two years. Shes not going to their wedding, shes not going to pick out wedding dresses with them. Use one of the services below to sign in to PBS: You've just tried to add this video to My List. Kelly Corrigan:She cant wear half her clothes because she cant zip them by herself. Kelly shares her own go to mantra as well as two blessings from frequent Kelly Corrigan Wonders guest Kate Bowler and her co-author/friend/podcast producer Jessica Richies beautiful and extremely useful book: The Lives We Actually Have (100 Blessings for Imperfect Days). Kate Bowler:Yeah. I mean, people are getting colon cancer at your age all the time. I really appreciate it. I dont have the genetic predisposition.
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